Curse

SOT · Aug 02, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Say this word out loud:

"EULA"

What does this term mean? You may recognize it. It resides in the world of Guild Wars that we all love and enjoy. It is called the "End-User-License-Agreement".

Ring any bells? It should, for you see, every piece of software you have installed on your computer comes with this neat little document. It has a purpose beyond eratta. It actually has meaning. Check it out sometime.

What the EULA is, in essence, is a legal letter of information for you the "user of a software program" that, while you purchased a license to use, access, and install, uninstall, reinstall the program, you DO NOT own the god damn software. No, sorry, it may stick in your craw to hear it, but you are not the title,deed, or shareholder in Ncsoft's property. You are basically a lease-holder on permanent software rental. You have permission to use THEIR software, not own it.

I bring all this lovely lore to the limelight because, it seems that at LEAST 50% of posters on these and many other forums cannot grasp what the EULA means in legal, and common sense terms.

The arguments range from "I bought the game I have the right to bot" to "I bought the game, so why am I banned for using it how I see fit?"

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR COPY OF GUILD WARS, YOU OWN THE RIGHT TO ACCESS THE CONTENT IN THE BOX.

They spent millions of dollars on thechnology, the staff, the dev team, the paperclips, the marketing, the executives, the previews, the E3 spots, the website, and it goes on and on and on. You spent roughly $60 or so. You, my friend, are not special. You are simply a guest in their playground.

Yes, the EULA is a LEGAL, BINDING DOCUMENT that states what your rights as a user ARE. It is legal. So no, buying the game does not mean you own it. It means you own a responsibility as a consumer, gamer, and human to follow the rules.

Sereng Amaranth · Aug 02, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Thank you.

/signed (fwiw)

Damon Windwalker · Aug 02, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

The arguments range from "I bought the game I have the right to bot" to "I bought the game, so why am I banned for using it how I see fit?"

I don't believe I've seen either of those arguments presented....

In fact, the only coversations I see that are close to either of these are the (far too numerous) conversations about buying eBay gold. Everything else I see is discussion/debate about the direction of the game, and how various people think it can be improved.

Aracos79 · Aug 02, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Off-topic: The first thing that jumped in my head after reading that was Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". "You are not special... we are the all singing, all dancing crap of the world".

On-topic: While the EULA may govern all activity in the game world, it still can't stop botters/farmers/average joe's from doing things outside the game world like sell gold/items on eBay. Sure the transfers take place IN the game world, and if ANet catches them they can ban you. But that ain't going to stop the eBay gravy train any time soon.

SOT · Aug 02, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I don't believe I've seen either of those arguments presented....

You are either lying about that or you honestly don't read all of a thread before replying thusly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aracos79

Off-topic: The first thing that jumped in my head after reading that was Tyler Durden from "Fight Club". "You are not special... we are the all singing, all dancing crap of the world".

LOL!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aracos79

On-topic: While the EULA may govern all activity in the game world, it still can't stop botters/farmers/average joe's from doing things outside the game world like sell gold/items on eBay. Sure the transfers take place IN the game world, and if ANet catches them they can ban you. But that ain't going to stop the eBay gravy train any time soon.

You are on the wrong topic. I am not debating if they can be stopped (they are, in ever growing numbers, thanks to anet's timeless dedication). i am saying that many people need to understand their own source material before running off into rampant flamewars and bickering about who has the right to do what in the game.

Teklord · Aug 02, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Non issue with me. As I play the game the way it was meant to be played, through and through. Means I don't spend worthless in game money to have someone run me to the end so I can become all powerful and cake walk the rest of the game.

And that's all I gots to say about that.

As for an above comment, no it won't stop botters (etc.) from doing what they do. However, just because it doesn't stop them it still doesn't make it legal. They are selling virtual items, which they don't own, for real profit - quite simply illegal.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 02, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Say this word out loud:

"EULA"

What does this term mean? You may recognize it. It resides in the world of Guild Wars that we all love and enjoy. It is called the "End-User-License-Agreement".

Ring any bells? It should, for you see, every piece of software you have installed on your computer comes with this neat little document. It has a purpose beyond eratta. It actually has meaning. Check it out sometime.

What the EULA is, in essence, is a legal letter of information for you the "user of a software program" that, while you purchased a license to use, access, and install, uninstall, reinstall the program, you DO NOT own the god damn software. No, sorry, it may stick in your craw to hear it, but you are not the title,deed, or shareholder in Ncsoft's property. You are basically a lease-holder on permanent software rental. You have permission to use THEIR software, not own it.

I bring all this lovely lore to the limelight because, it seems that at LEAST 50% of posters on these and many other forums cannot grasp what the EULA means in legal, and common sense terms.

The arguments range from "I bought the game I have the right to bot" to "I bought the game, so why am I banned for using it how I see fit?"

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR COPY OF GUILD WARS, YOU OWN THE RIGHT TO ACCESS THE CONTENT IN THE BOX.

They spent millions of dollars on thechnology, the staff, the dev team, the paperclips, the marketing, the executives, the previews, the E3 spots, the website, and it goes on and on and on. You spent roughly $60 or so. You, my friend, are not special. You are simply a guest in their playground.

Yes, the EULA is a LEGAL, BINDING DOCUMENT that states what your rights as a user ARE. It is legal. So no, buying the game does not mean you own it. It means you own a responsibility as a consumer, gamer, and human to follow the rules.

I'd like to clarify another misconception as well.

You're NOT going to jail for selling gold/items on ebay. Breaking the EULA means you can get SUED, but that is a civil matter, not a crimminal one. You can only go to jail (very remote chance) if it crosses the line between civil and crimminal. Warezing the software is a federal copyright law offense, not a EULA civil offense. Selling a fellblade on ebay is a civil matter.

Selling items on ebay = civil issue = Banning accounts, getting sued.
Warezing, Hacking, DDOSing, = Crimminal matter = Jail.

Please note, again, the likelihood of getting sued or being sent to jail is very slim possibility, in 99.999% of the cases they will either ignore it, or ban an account. Just illustrating a point here.

SOT · Aug 02, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I'd like to clarify another misconception as well.

You're NOT going to jail for selling gold/items on ebay. Breaking the EULA means you can get SUED, but that is a civil matter, not a crimminal one. You can only go to jail (very remote chance) if it crosses the line between civil and crimminal. Warezing the software is a federal copyright law offense, not a EULA civil offense. Selling a fellblade on ebay is a civil matter.

Selling items on ebay = civil issue = Banning accounts, getting sued.
Warezing, Hacking, DDOSing, = Crimminal matter = Jail.

Please note, again, the likelihood of getting sued or being sent to jail is very slim possibility, in 99.999% of the cases they will either ignore it, or ban an account. Just illustrating a point here.

And yet, that is my argument restated FOR ME. Thanks

Jailtime? you brought that one to the fore, not I. Point is, it is a civil matter, you can be sued, which makes it a legal document. Peroid. Semantics that shoot you in the foot are only proving my point further.

Thanks for the clarification....to yourself

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 02, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

And yet, that is my argument restated FOR ME. Thanks

Jailtime? you brought that one to the fore, not I. Point is, it is a civil matter, you can be sued, which makes it a legal document. Peroid. Semantics that shoot you in the foot are only proving my point further.

Thanks for the clarification....to yourself

Ummm...just where is your original post did you mention the distinction between a civil matter and a crimminal one? You did not make any argument other than the EULA is a legal document. I simply expanded on your point. I didn't refute it, I simply expanded on it. I've read in several threads people talking about going to jail for breaking the EULA and I thought I would be kind enough to clarify the difference, since you didn't.

Please be more considerate when attempting to flame someone. Or at least do a better job next time.

SOT · Aug 02, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Ummm...just where is your original post did you mention the distinction between a civil matter and a crimminal one? You did not make any argument other than the EULA is a legal document. I simply expanded on your point. I didn't refute it, I simply expanded on it. I've read in several threads people talking about going to jail for breaking the EULA and I thought I would be kind enough to clarify the difference, since you didn't.

Please be more considerate when attempting to flame someone. Or at least do a better job next time.

I didn't mention it, and my response to you wasn't a flame. It was a fact. Legal distinction was not my aim, that was yours, and no, you were not refuting or agreeing. I have no beef with you, or your post, but your post had no bearing on what I said.

The thread was not started to scream about witch hunts and jail time and what miay or may not transpire, should an asshat decide to ignore the EULA. It was to get it into the thick skulls of a large crowd what the document IS.

SJG · Aug 02, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

IANAL, but as I understand it EULAs have yet to be tested in court, so there is every chance that they are just useless bits of unenforceable legalese.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, here.

SOT · Aug 02, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I truly wish Arenanet Had Forums on-site. They would have more sound moderation than goes on here.

Mark my words, my own posts will be singled out here, as always, but the flamers will keep on a goin.

I think I will logout and not return. Good luck lasherdragon. This place needs it.

*sigh*

I admit defeat. You people are hopeless.

MuKen · Aug 02, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

1) EULAs are not legally enforceable to minors (a huge portion of the players).
2) EULAs are not criminally enforceable to anybody, they are contracts, not laws.
3) It is questionable (I've seen it debated many times) whether EULAs for video games hold any water at all, since you can't read them until you've opened enough of the box to not be able return it and get your money back.
4) At a minimum, no video game company has ever gotten an EULA enforced against anyone in a court of law or even to sue anybody.

Companies put EULAs in video games for one reason and one reason alone: so THEY cannot be sued for the actions or the results of actions by people who are breaking the EULAs.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 02, 2005, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT
And yet, that is my argument restated FOR ME.

No, it wasn't, it was additional information, not restating your argument.

Quote:

Thanks Jailtime? you brought that one to the fore, not I.

Ummm...yeah?

Quote:

Point is, it is a civil matter, you can be sued, which makes it a legal document. Peroid. Semantics that shoot you in the foot are only proving my point further.

I wasn't proving "your point" I was proving mine. Yes, the EULA is a legal document. Some folks around here don't seem to be able to make the distinction between a legal document and a crimminal matter. I expanded on your point to help people understand the difference, since you failed to do so - regardless whether that was your purpose or not.

Quote:

Thanks for the clarification....to yourself

Needless flame. Just because you and I may understand the distinction, others obviously don't. Isn't that the point of your original post, to inform the gaming public, not just to make an attempt at flexing your uber leet legal mental powers or to feel superior to the rest of the members of this forum?

Third Quarter · Aug 02, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

If you suppose, simply for the sake of argument, that EULAs are not legally binding and are just pretty words used to scare people, you still need the right to connect to Anet's servers to do anything.

This access, naturally, is restricted in certain ways. (primarily things like not botting, scamming, hacking, and so forth) These rules are usually documented as the Terms of Service. As long as you obey, Anet agrees to offer their service to you.

Disobey, and Anet no longer has any obligation or reason to allow you to continue using their service.

Algren Cole · Aug 02, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

/not signed.

remove your reference to "legal binding contract" and your post is flawlessly perfect.

Teh Azman · Aug 02, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Very well put in the first post, SOT. And by the way, to you ebayers and such out there, I have honestly begun to believe that no matter how well written of a post to defend yourself you can put up...

Your willingness to spend real money just to maybe get ahead in a game makes you look like too big of an idiot for me, and hopefully others, to take you seriously.

/signed

Damon Windwalker · Aug 02, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Why are people /signing this? it's not a sugestion o petition - it's a rant...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

I admit defeat. You people are hopeless.

Hooray!! We're hopeless!

bah - what a worthless thread.

Meeker · Aug 02, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Say this word out loud:

"EULA"

What does this term mean? You may recognize it. It resides in the world of Guild Wars that we all love and enjoy. It is called the "End-User-License-Agreement".

Ring any bells? It should, for you see, every piece of software you have installed on your computer comes with this neat little document. It has a purpose beyond eratta. It actually has meaning. Check it out sometime.

What the EULA is, in essence, is a legal letter of information for you the "user of a software program" that, while you purchased a license to use, access, and install, uninstall, reinstall the program, you DO NOT own the god damn software. No, sorry, it may stick in your craw to hear it, but you are not the title,deed, or shareholder in Ncsoft's property. You are basically a lease-holder on permanent software rental. You have permission to use THEIR software, not own it.

I bring all this lovely lore to the limelight because, it seems that at LEAST 50% of posters on these and many other forums cannot grasp what the EULA means in legal, and common sense terms.

The arguments range from "I bought the game I have the right to bot" to "I bought the game, so why am I banned for using it how I see fit?"

YOU DO NOT OWN YOUR COPY OF GUILD WARS, YOU OWN THE RIGHT TO ACCESS THE CONTENT IN THE BOX.

They spent millions of dollars on thechnology, the staff, the dev team, the paperclips, the marketing, the executives, the previews, the E3 spots, the website, and it goes on and on and on. You spent roughly $60 or so. You, my friend, are not special. You are simply a guest in their playground.

Yes, the EULA is a LEGAL, BINDING DOCUMENT that states what your rights as a user ARE. It is legal. So no, buying the game does not mean you own it. It means you own a responsibility as a consumer, gamer, and human to follow the rules.

I am sorry but you are 100% completely wrong. There have been several recent court rulings that have basically stated that an EULA means nothing.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/11...ixes_software/

"Specifically, the ruling decrees that software purchases be treated as sales transactions, rather than explicit license agreements. In other words, consumers should have the same rights they'd enjoy under existing copyright legislation when buying a CD or a book. They can't make copies, but they can resell what they own."

As other people have mentioned there are also ruling in courts that cover the ground that you can read an EULA until you have already bought the game at which point you can not longer return it and therefore an EULA is not legally binding.

While A.Net will continue to ban accounts and no one will stop them, in fact I agree to most but not all of the bannings, they can not claim they have the right because of a EULA. In fact if a botter who was banned decided to sue A.Net and had the money to do so he would have the law on his side.

Thank you, come again.

Algren Cole · Aug 02, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Meeker...you are forgetting that ArenaNet owns the servers...they CAN dictate what you are allowed to use THEIR servers for...the Law would not be on ArenaNets side in that particular case.

though I agree...EULAs are fluff and have no legal precedence or contractual backing.